Grayson Perry:’ As an artist I find Brexit exciting. No doubt it will be a disaster’

Britains finest transvestite potter is hard at work investigating the nature of masculinity. Over a game platter near his London home, he discusses motorbikes, body image and more

For a while, perhaps all his life, Grayson Perry has been making a study of what it means to be a human. So, what do two blokes nursing a beer in the corner of a tavern talk about of a Tuesday lunchtime? The topics of dialogue with Britains greatest ever transvestite potter-cum-tapestry-maker kick off as follows: what do net curtains genuinely signify( he was working on a hypothesi on his way here ); the difficulty of taking corners at velocity on a 9ft-long pink motorbike( he is having a more wieldy model custom built in Sussex ); books as the last talisman of savour( they are the knick-knacks of thought, arent they ?); and the distinction, if any, between bohemians and hipsters( as soon as something becomes a phenomenon its already died ).

We are in the Drapers Arms in Islington , north London, a place in which we both feel something of a proprietorial interest. I lived in a flat across the road 20 -odd years ago, when this place was more a scoundrels saloon than gastropub. Perrys association goes back further. He moved into his wife Philippas house near here in the mid-1 980 s, and watched the region become a byword for gentrification. Hes more commonly found in an unreconstructed caff on nearby Upper Street, he insists, but the Drapers is a good option if he is going posh. One way of looking at his career, he indicates, is that he has expended half a lifetime operate and saving enough money to move his studio from Walthamstow to within a five-minute bike ride of his home. He calculates that the relocation of space cost him 220,000 a mile( seven in all ).

We are alone in the pub at midday, save for a guy who has just finished painting the far wall. Perry , now 57, is in civvies T-shirt and zip-up jacket and jeans and straggly hair. The previous hour I assured him he was full Bo-Peep and platform clogs at the opening of an exhibit of The Vulgar at the Barbican( Dedicated the theme I had to make an effort, he says ). The fact that he seems equally at ease in both incarnations suggests that he has long since got his own version of manhood definitively cracked.

He is less certain of what to order. His wifes away on holiday and hes not that much of a cook, so he wants to make sure he has a decent feed. I often get ordering wrong and then I detest myself, he says, gruffly. Im a fan of the restaurant where they only have one thing and maybe a vegetarian option. You get what you are given.

The Drapers offers a full nose-to-tail option for the red-blooded male, though it seems a little bit early in the day for ox heart. Im looking at my tactics here, Perry says. Do I want fish for main or fish for starter? Suet crust lamb and carrot pie: I like the sound of that, and theres a donation to Action against Hunger. He rules out the Arbroath smokie. Im loath to eat anything in a restaurant that involves toast. I can get that at home. Im struggling. Im overwhelmed

Given that we are ostensibly here to talk about manliness we opt to bond over a shared plate of game: partridge and teal. Perry sips at a pint of lager. Hes got another do tonight so hes got to go careful on the booze, he says. He determines it harder these days to get drunk twice in a day. Starting out as an artist he would pitch up with Francis Bacon at the Colony Rooms in Soho at lunchtime and drink through to when the pub opened in the evening, and then carry on. Times change.

Of late, he has been touring the country with his show Typical Man in a Dress, and chatting with different groups of men for some documentary raw material. He has a book-length manifesto, The Descent of Man , that dismantles the default male, that construction that still predominates boardrooms and bar rooms. He stimulates the lawsuit for vulnerability and playfulness. These men have a anxiety of colouring. Its because theyre frightened of making a mistake perhaps. They all wear what I call cowards black. I glance down at my nondescript dark navy attire, and dig into my starter, the ox heart.

Does he ever get heckled on stage?

He doesnt hear much from conventional loudmouths, he says, with some unhappines, more from alpha creative humen in big glasses I can feel them bristling, since they are dont like the idea of me, a non-academic, getting to do the Reith Lectures in a frock.

He is constantly amused by the way that in any given group of men, petty hierarchies immediately emerge. I was with a group of trans people the other week. I heard one say behind people back, Yeah, but hes a just a cross-dresser. No surgery: a lightweight. So, its like, you cant win.

He is not immune to any of that himself, but amused and sometimes angry about it. Hes grown up through therapy, as well as art. As a adolescent in Essex with an absent father and violent stepfather he not only tried on womens clothes for size, but also was preoccupied with war games, planes and motorbikes. He would remove gaskets in his front garden, and roar around the lanes.

Now he looks for that abandon on his mountain bike in Epping Forest. He cycles with a mate. They cycled to Madrid once, though he wouldnt recommend cycling across northern Spain in the summer. You come across these astonishing hilltop townships, but the bit in between is genuinely horrific, hot, dry, and on an -Aroad. Still, they proved that they could.

Our game platter arrives, two roasted birds, side by side. Perry carves them up, has a mouthful of teal: Its good, he says, but its a bit of a fiddle. Teal will stay in my lexicon as a colouring rather than dinner. I use quite a lot of teal orange in my pottery.

Hes in his studio most days. He loves the constructing side of what he does more fun than stripping motorbikes, though it appeals to a similar sense. Because he works on quite a small scale, he needs an awful lot of ideas to fill a display. Its not like I come in with a memory stick and say blow it up to fill the wall.He has a big one-man exhibition coming up at the Serpentine in the summer, so hes hard at it. Trump and Brexit have been a bit of godsend in this respect, dedicating an edge to his examination of the destructive male ego. These things act as smelling salts, he says. As an artist I find it arousing. No doubt it will be a disaster, but also any chance to stick it to my fellow Islington liberals is great.

They ate: Curried apple and parsnip soup, 5.50( Grayson ); ox heart and sweet and sour cauliflower with almonds, 7.50( Tim ); partridge, teal, potato gratin, mushrooms and kale platter, 32( both ). They drank: Norwich lager, 4.20( Grayson ); IPA, 4.80( Tim ). The Table The Drapers Arms, 44 Barnsbury Street, London N1 1ER; 020 7619 0348 Photograph: Katherine Anne Rose for the Observer

We talking here how every generation seems to have to make its own mistakes. He expended time trying to get some sense out of gangs of teenage boys for his book. Does he believe rites of passageway are harder for them than for him?

The big difference, he guesses, is the preoccupation with body image. We never thought about what our bodies were like, you might get a bit anxious if your pubes were slow growing but that was it. We werent instagramming our six packs. He hesitates to blamed technology, but it clearly doesnt assist. He tries to avoid social media himself. When mobile phones came out, the latter are a status emblem, he says. Now the status symbol is having someone to manage your mobile phone for you.

Technology is another thing for men to hide behind. Its like men very often default to the lowest common denominator in dialogue, he says. I always believe, that guy who is saying to you, The Arsenal did well at the weekend, what he is really saying is, Please like me, Im nice. If we keep going Ill tell you about my divorce.

Its interesting that Perry himself does not seem needy in that way. Though he preaches openness he has a few red lines in what he wants to talk about. A couple of periods I ask him about his relationship with his family, and he deflects to talk about the partridge. Before we go, I ask him whether the scheme was always to become a member of the arts establishment or whether that ambushed him?

Probably a bit of both. And since I cant pretend to be anything else, Ill play with it as much as I can. Early on in my career when I first started selling run, a friend who set great store in, you know, youth culture, said to me, Grayson, youve sold out. I was like: Get over yourself, frankly! Do you actually want to be a squatter all of your fucking life?

He felt hed done his time?

Yeah, he says, I suppose I did.

The Descent of Man is out in paperback( Penguin, 8.99 ). To buy a copy for 7.74, go to

Read more:

About the Author